A Belated Response to Timmer
Holy Crap Timmer!! (no pun intended)
The homosexual thing was interesting,
I don't think I've ever scene you react like that. If I had something to offer, I'd award you a prize for the line "we are just elbowing Jesus out of the way to get a better shot" Wow! Preach!! PS (when are they gonna let you preach!)
Now, all the while I am also nudging that same pesky peace maker out my way so I can get a better shot at the other people I don't like. Jesus, YOU ARE IN THE WAY!! Get out of there before you get hit!
And then I think about it, and it seems like most of us may fall into the category of throwing rocks or not throwing rocks, but few of us are actually getting in the way(certainly not me) and stepping up in protection of the sinner-rock-targets. None of us are human shields for the oppressed
Sometimes I wonders what would happen if Christians preached that following Jesus would mean not just avoiding sinning and rock throwing, or even auguing against the rock throwers, but actually being in the way like Jesus, and stepping in front of those who are doing the throwing and taking a blow in place of the others. It seems like that is far more what happened at the cross than I am used to hearing. Specifically, I am used to hearing the message that “Jesus suffered in our place so that we don’t have to”
Perhaps its a tangent, but I can not stay silent on this, the idea that God had to kill Jesus in order to forgive us, is an idea that keeps Christianity in its rock throwing mode. It keeps it easy, asks nothing of us, and it distorts the way and power of the cross. In that scenario of the cross, the problem seems to be that a holy God is unable to forgive humans unless he kills something. That concept needs a ton of philosophical and systematic Bible twisting to make it work. In reading the Old Testament, somehow, someone decided that God forgave them only based on the coming sacrifice?? Come on! the texts are clear, God forgave people because he is faithful and just, and he forgives... its what he does! He can do that with or with out a sacrifice, and yes, for those sovereignty nuts, God is indeed sovereign enough to do whatever He wants, even if you think it is unjust and against what you think his character ought to be! That is the point of Romans that the sovereignty nuts have mangled. I often think systematic theology developed as a way of concealing the fact that we needed a vastly devalued version of Christianity in order to make it more marketable. Sure it sounds appealing to say that Jesus suffered so that I don’t have to, or that he accepted God’s judgment so that I will not be judged by God, but Biblically speaking, that is a pile of (skubalon) rubbish!
In a different scenario of the cross:, the idea that Jesus had to do what he did in order to inaugurate the way of the way of the cross as being the way of the kingdom everlasting, the one which we are called to follow,…that’s a tough one. Most of us prefer a God who just had to kill something so that he could forgive us, then the dirty work is already done, and the problem is God’s not ours. When this idea dominates, we can go on arguing about whether or not to throw rocks at sinners whom God may or may not have died for. Personally I decide not to throw at the obvious sinners, and then I throw rocks at the other people who disagreed with me. But, if you begin talking about laying down my rocks and stepping up in front of the rocks already thrown at all the sinners (all of us) by other sinners (all of us)... ick. Yeah, I don't really like the Jesus that says follow me in that way. I like the one who says he forgives, and then allows me to invent some complex theology about why he had to die rather than the simple "I forgive you because I am God and I can do that,... now follow me (to the cross) and trust that you find life in the way of my kingdom". No thanks, I'd prefer to be distracted by the theological matrix we created of what a holy God can and can’t do.
END OF RANT (and a little rock throwing of my own)
The homosexual thing was interesting,
I don't think I've ever scene you react like that. If I had something to offer, I'd award you a prize for the line "we are just elbowing Jesus out of the way to get a better shot" Wow! Preach!! PS (when are they gonna let you preach!)
Now, all the while I am also nudging that same pesky peace maker out my way so I can get a better shot at the other people I don't like. Jesus, YOU ARE IN THE WAY!! Get out of there before you get hit!
And then I think about it, and it seems like most of us may fall into the category of throwing rocks or not throwing rocks, but few of us are actually getting in the way(certainly not me) and stepping up in protection of the sinner-rock-targets. None of us are human shields for the oppressed
Sometimes I wonders what would happen if Christians preached that following Jesus would mean not just avoiding sinning and rock throwing, or even auguing against the rock throwers, but actually being in the way like Jesus, and stepping in front of those who are doing the throwing and taking a blow in place of the others. It seems like that is far more what happened at the cross than I am used to hearing. Specifically, I am used to hearing the message that “Jesus suffered in our place so that we don’t have to”
Perhaps its a tangent, but I can not stay silent on this, the idea that God had to kill Jesus in order to forgive us, is an idea that keeps Christianity in its rock throwing mode. It keeps it easy, asks nothing of us, and it distorts the way and power of the cross. In that scenario of the cross, the problem seems to be that a holy God is unable to forgive humans unless he kills something. That concept needs a ton of philosophical and systematic Bible twisting to make it work. In reading the Old Testament, somehow, someone decided that God forgave them only based on the coming sacrifice?? Come on! the texts are clear, God forgave people because he is faithful and just, and he forgives... its what he does! He can do that with or with out a sacrifice, and yes, for those sovereignty nuts, God is indeed sovereign enough to do whatever He wants, even if you think it is unjust and against what you think his character ought to be! That is the point of Romans that the sovereignty nuts have mangled. I often think systematic theology developed as a way of concealing the fact that we needed a vastly devalued version of Christianity in order to make it more marketable. Sure it sounds appealing to say that Jesus suffered so that I don’t have to, or that he accepted God’s judgment so that I will not be judged by God, but Biblically speaking, that is a pile of (skubalon) rubbish!
In a different scenario of the cross:, the idea that Jesus had to do what he did in order to inaugurate the way of the way of the cross as being the way of the kingdom everlasting, the one which we are called to follow,…that’s a tough one. Most of us prefer a God who just had to kill something so that he could forgive us, then the dirty work is already done, and the problem is God’s not ours. When this idea dominates, we can go on arguing about whether or not to throw rocks at sinners whom God may or may not have died for. Personally I decide not to throw at the obvious sinners, and then I throw rocks at the other people who disagreed with me. But, if you begin talking about laying down my rocks and stepping up in front of the rocks already thrown at all the sinners (all of us) by other sinners (all of us)... ick. Yeah, I don't really like the Jesus that says follow me in that way. I like the one who says he forgives, and then allows me to invent some complex theology about why he had to die rather than the simple "I forgive you because I am God and I can do that,... now follow me (to the cross) and trust that you find life in the way of my kingdom". No thanks, I'd prefer to be distracted by the theological matrix we created of what a holy God can and can’t do.
END OF RANT (and a little rock throwing of my own)
posted by Post_Fidelitas at 3:58 PM
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